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#1 Guest_scooter_*

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 10:56 AM

Because it makes people uneasy? Or could it be because the answers arent reliable and Biblical?

#2 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:02 AM

Because it makes people uneasy? Or could it be because the answers arent reliable and Biblical?

No. You were told why that thread was closed. Both you and Mercia were allowed to continue to spam for days, whilst you were being asked to respond to people's posts and to stop misrepresenting them.

You failed to do this.

Tonight you were both asked once more to respond to people's posts and to stop misrepresenting them, or the thread would be closed.

After that warning was given, both of you went and did exactly what you had been asked not to do. So the thread was closed.

Here is one of the warnings issued tonight:

No Jesus is not the satan.  Please read what I write, or stop posting in this thread.

Show me how the FLESH called Satan in Zechariah can be STANDING NEXT TO the High Priest?

I never said it was. You are not reading my posts. I will tell you once more to read my posts, or stop posting.

Spamming is an offence on this board. You have been warned about this countless times.


Here is another:

Attention Mercia and Scooter:

This thread will be closed:

  •   You continue to fail to read other people's posts


  •   You continue to falsely accuse people of believing things they do not believe


  •   You continue to repeat yourselves without actually addressing what others say in response
We have had a number of complaints about your behaviour in this thread.  This is a formal warning for you to modify your behaviour accordingly.


Your questions were answered repeatedly, and the thread has been left there for everyone to read both sides and make up their own minds.

You don't get anywhere by spamming these boards.

#3 Guest_scooter_*

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:03 AM

Well, I apoligise for that

#4 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:06 AM

Well, I apoligise for that

Thank you.

#5 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:24 AM

Because it makes people uneasy? Or could it be because the answers arent reliable and Biblical?
No.  You were told why that thread was closed.  Both you and Mercia were allowed to continue to spam for days, whilst you were being asked to respond to people's posts and to stop misrepresenting them.

You failed to do this.

Tonight you were both asked once more to respond to people's posts and to stop misrepresenting them, or the thread would be closed.

After that warning was given, both of you went and did exactly what you had been asked not to do.  So the thread was closed.

Here is one of the warnings issued tonight:


No Jesus is not the satan.  Please read what I write, or stop posting in this thread.
Show me how the FLESH called Satan in Zechariah can be STANDING NEXT TO the High Priest?
I never said it was.  You are not reading my posts.  I will tell you once more to read my posts, or stop posting.

Spamming is an offence on this board.  You have been warned about this countless times.


That is nonesense.

Not only was I not doing that, but I was NOT getting any answers.
It is a total reversal of what he says.

On the 17th page I said this

Show me how the FLESH called Satan in Zechariah can be STANDING NEXT TO the High Priest? This will just not fool anyone! And dont tell me the Satan has become some external person here because you cannot deal with the Bible in this way. You cannot say the Satan is one thing here and another thing in Matthew 4. The definite article means its "the" Satan from the Old Testament (and the Satan from the old Testament was not an internal tester but was EXTERNAL).


Yet not only did I not get a reply, I then got falsely accussed of what he did not do.
Fortigurn always does this when it comes to either Satan or Demons as the CD's cannot prove anything from the Bible but I can PROVE through Bible symbollism that the Devil is an BIRD/Angel (obviously no one is going to believe the Devil is a LITERAL bird) and birds ARE ANGELS, so instead mis-represent me and close the thread before I get a chance to reply.

I asked you how Satan could be an external tempter in the Old Testament and in the New Testament (1 Peter 5: 8-9) “Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. Be firm in your faith and resist him.”
And yet an internal tempter in the Matthew 4 and got no reply. So not only have I been falsely mis-represented but I WAS the one who never got my question answered.

Neither did I get a reply to this. Because what can they can say? All they can say is that Satan is sometimes external and in Matthew 4 obviously not. Yet not only is he external in the OT but he is also external everywhere else he is described in the NT (apart from Matt 4 according to them). Even though it HAS TO BE the same Satan in old testament as the definite article is used (i.e the Satan we all know by now). And that Satan was external.

As I said on the thread, I was hoping to reply to his Buzzard article but never got the chance before the thread was closed.

Scooter, you did not help. As you actually did keep on repeating yourself about Lucifer even after I asked you not to.

In the parable of the sower the “birds of heaven” devoured the seed (the message of the Kingdom) which fell by the wayside. Jesus’ explanation of the birds is that “the devil comes and takes away the Message from their heart so that they may not believe and be saved” (Luke 8:5, 12). Will anyone seriously suggest that the birds of the sky represent internal human nature? SO THEN HOW do you think you can get away with saying that in Matthew 4?


The bottomline is you are asked to accept the CD idea of the Devil that is in one place internal, in another place external, is called a bird (the biblical symbollism for an angel) which is in turn called "a demon and foul spirit" (Rev 18:3); which can transform into a angel of light, asks God to sift people, is the ruler of spiritual powers (Eph.2: 2), (Eph. 6: 11-12) , is external in (1 Peter 5: 8-9) “Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. Be firm in your faith and resist him.” But apparantly a mindset of Jesus in Matthew 4!
So you either believe this chaotic CD idea FORCED on the text, or you believe the Bible.

The sinful world is Satan's domain: Job 1:7; 1 Pe 5:8
Ruler of this world: Jn 12:31; 14:31; 16:11
Prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2
The god of this world: 2 Cor 4:4
He promises the world to those who will obey him: Mt 4:8-9
His domain is a sinful world under evil power: 1 Jn 5:19
God is more powerful than Satan: 1 Jn 4:4 "greater is He..."
Satan rules the world through deception and sin, not legitimately by God: Rev 12:9

Edited by Mercia2, 27 March 2005 - 11:57 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#6 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:34 AM

Because it makes people uneasy? Or could it be because the answers arent reliable and Biblical?
No.  You were told why that thread was closed.  Both you and Mercia were allowed to continue to spam for days, whilst you were being asked to respond to people's posts and to stop misrepresenting them.

You failed to do this.

Tonight you were both asked once more to respond to people's posts and to stop misrepresenting them, or the thread would be closed.

After that warning was given, both of you went and did exactly what you had been asked not to do.  So the thread was closed.

Here is one of the warnings issued tonight:


No Jesus is not the satan.  Please read what I write, or stop posting in this thread.
Show me how the FLESH called Satan in Zechariah can be STANDING NEXT TO the High Priest?
I never said it was.  You are not reading my posts.  I will tell you once more to read my posts, or stop posting.

Spamming is an offence on this board.  You have been warned about this countless times.


That is nonesense.

Not only was I not doing that, but I was NOT getting any answers.
It is a total reversal of what he says.

The evidence is right there in the thread - I'll let people make up their own minds.

On the 17th page I said this

Show me how the FLESH called Satan in Zechariah can be STANDING NEXT TO the High Priest? This will just not fool anyone! And dont tell me the Satan has become some external person here because you cannot deal with the Bible in this way. You cannot say the Satan is one thing here and another thing in Matthew 4. The definite article means its "the" Satan from the Old Testament (and the Satan from the old Testament was not an internal tester but was EXTERNAL).


Yet not only did I not get a reply, I then got falsely accussed of what he did not do.


You didn't get a reply because as I had already told you we do not believe that the flesh is satan in Zechariah. I had linked you to my explanation of Zechariah previously.

Fortigurn always does this when it comes to either Satan or Demons as the CD's cannot prove anything from the Bible, so instead mis-represent me and close the thread before I get a chance to reply.


That is totally false. There are thirteen pages in that thread, made over days, so you've had every opportuntity to reply.

I even linked you to my response to Buzzard, and you complained that it was in the Armoury, and somehow made that as an excuse for not answering it.

I asked you how Satan could be an external tempter in the Old Testament and in the New Testament (1 Peter 5: 8-9)  “Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. Be firm in your faith and resist him.”
And yet an internal tempter in the Matthew 4 and got no reply. So not only have I been falsely mis-represented but I WAS the one who never got my question answered.


This was answered as well, in my link.

As I said on the thread, I was hoping to reply to his Buzzard article but never got the chance before the thread was closed.


You had the chance to do so in the thread, and chose not to. I told you that you could do it in another thread. You're still able to do this.

Scooter, you did not help. As you actually did keep on repeating yourself about Lucifer even after I asked you not to.


Now you know what I feel like when I'm replying to you. That's exactly what you do to me.

Neither did I get a reply to this. Because all they can say it Satan is sometimes external and in Matthew 4 obviously not. Even though it HAS TO BE the same Satan in old testament as the definite article is used (i.e the Satan we all know by now). And that Satan was external.


I replied to this directly - you had claimed that the satan in the Old Testament was an external tempter, andI proved that the satan in the Old Testament is never a tempter at all.

I also linked you to my reply to Buzzard, in which this argument (which you copied from him without attributing it to him), is answered. Yet no reply from you was forthcoming.

#7 Dawn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:36 AM

I'm glad it was closed 'cos it was doing my head in.

I really don't think that it was getting anybody anywhere.

As someone who has visited the "Revelation TV" Forum (in the past - I can't be bothered now) I think the moderation on this site is very, very fair.

On Rev TV they'd close a topic without giving people a fair crack of the whip, and I found it irritating to put it mildly (though I don't doubt the integrity of their motives). The moderators on that site would never have allowed an 18 page discussion on the devil with such opposing views. They'd've probably locked after page 2.

#8 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:40 AM

You didn't get a reply because as I had already told you we do not believe that the flesh is satan in Zechariah. I had linked you to my explanation of Zechariah previously.

I know you dont, that was my WHOLE point. You agree Satan is external in the OT because it is, and even everywhere else in the NT Satan is external, yet in Matthew 4 you say he is the flesh. I then said to you that means you are calling Jesus "the" Satan, and you replied that I am mis-representing you EVEN THOUGH I said this....

If Jesus was tempting himself with "all the kingdoms of the world". Then this would be a THOUGHT in his MIND. So on what basis do you seperate the MIND of someone from that person and call it "THE SATAN"? This is nonesense! If Jesus had Satanic thoughts (as you claim) at this moment, then Jesus is THE Satan with the definite article in this text, and no amount of playing semantics can avoid the implications of your own theology that calls the mind of Jesus in Matthew 4 "THE Satan".


And I never got a reply! Infact I got accussed of mis-representing you because I wouldnt capitulate to your erroneous idea that the flesh of Jesus or rather his thoughts (his mind) can be seperated from Jesus and called "the Satan".

Obviously not! If a mans mind thinks something satanic, then it is THE MAN who is being an adversary in his thoughts to God!
What justification is their to think otherwise? Yet you chose this especially to mis-represent me and say I was not understanding your point :eek:
What you mean is I WASNT AGREEING to your point.

Edited by Mercia2, 27 March 2005 - 11:55 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#9 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:41 AM

On Rev TV they'd close a topic without giving people a fair crack of the whip, and I found it irritating to put it mildly (though I don't doubt the integrity of their motives). The moderators on that site would never have allowed an 18 page discussion on the devil with such opposing views. They'd've probably locked after page 2.

Dawn, this is a FUNDAMENTAL Bible teaching. What has happened to you that you say such things should not be discussed? Who would like you not to discuss such a thing if not Satan?
I will remind you they call the mind/flesh of Jesus (which obviously means Jesus), "the" Satan in Matthew 4. Does this not bother you?

Edited by Mercia2, 27 March 2005 - 11:46 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#10 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:43 AM

I'm glad it was closed 'cos it was doing my head in.

I really don't think that it was getting anybody anywhere.

I agree totally.

As someone who has visited the "Revelation TV" Forum (in the past - I can't be bothered now) I think the moderation on this site is very, very fair.

On Rev TV they'd close a topic without giving people a fair crack of the whip, and I found it irritating to put it mildly (though I don't doubt the integrity of their motives).  The moderators on that site would never have allowed an 18 page discussion on the devil with such opposing views.  They'd've probably locked after page 2.


:thank:

#11 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:44 AM

You didn't get a reply because as I had already told you we do not believe that the flesh is satan in Zechariah. I had linked you to my explanation of Zechariah previously.

I know you dont, that was my WHOLE point.

If that was supposed to be your whole point, then why did you ask me twice to defend an argument I was not making? You represented us as believing something we did not believe.

You agree Satan is external in the OT because it is, and even everywhere else in the NT Satan is external, yet in Matthew 4 you say he is the flesh. I then said to you that means you are calling Jesus "the" Satan, and you replied that I am mis-representing you EVEN THOUGH I said this....

If Jesus was tempting himself with "all the kingdoms of the world". Then this would be a THOUGHT in his MIND. So on what basis do you seperate the MIND of someone from that person and call it "THE SATAN"? This is nonesense! If Jesus had Satanic thoughts (as you claim) at this moment, then Jesus is THE Satan with the definite article in this text, and no amount of playing semantics can avoid the implications of your own theology that calls the mind of Jesus in Matthew 4 "THE Satan".


And I never got a reply! Infact I got accussed of mis-representing you because I wouldnt capitulaste to your erroneous idea that the flesh of Jesus or rather his thoughts (his mind) can be seperated from Jesus and called "the Satan". Obviously not! If a mans mind thinks something satanic, then it is THE MAN who is who is being an adversary in his thoughts to God!
What justification is their to think otherwise? Yet you chose this especially to mis-represent me and say I was not understanding your point :eek:
What you mean is I WASNT AGREEING to your point.


I answered this entire argument in my reply to Buzzard, to which I already linked you.

#12 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:44 AM

I replied to this directly - you had claimed that the satan in the Old Testament was an external tempter, andI proved that the satan in the Old Testament is never a tempter at all.

I also linked you to my reply to Buzzard, in which this argument (which you copied from him without attributing it to him), is answered. Yet no reply from you was forthcoming.

I said tempter once, and then corrected it to "tester".
The conversation about replying to the Buzzard article was about 1am last night, I have been asleep since then I will reply whereever you like.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#13 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:44 AM

On Rev TV they'd close a topic without giving people a fair crack of the whip, and I found it irritating to put it mildly (though I don't doubt the integrity of their motives). The moderators on that site would never have allowed an 18 page discussion on the devil with such opposing views. They'd've probably locked after page 2.

Dawn, this is a FUNDAMENTAL Bible teaching. What has happened to you that you say such things should not be discussed?

She didn't. You're not reading her posts.

#14 Guest_scooter_*

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:53 AM

I agree with dawn, this site is very fair, the revelation site isnt. All you need to do on that site is disagree with their view, and you get banned for life I guess.;0)

#15 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 12:02 PM

Yes fair to you because you actually were constantly repeating yourself about Lucifer. Not fair to me as I was not doing what I was accussed of doing.

Scooter, as I have said before. The Bible talks alot about Satan and his role, and what he does. But does not anywhere link him to Lucifer in a way that is ever likely to convice the CD's (or myself for that matter).

The problem is their denial that Satan is a prosecuting angel of God, not that Satan is Lucifer. The Satan = Lucifer idea is not even that popular amongst serious theologians who have studied Gods Word. Its just poor speculation seeing the text says Lucifer is a MAN, and a angel is not a man. The reference to Eden means he was once pure (symbollic) = close to God.

Edited by Mercia2, 27 March 2005 - 12:05 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#16 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 12:06 PM

Here Scooter, the first link I found on the devil doing a search, and they are saying the same - lucifer = not the same as Satan.

http://www.bible.ca/su-devil.htm
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#17 Dawn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 12:11 PM

On Rev TV they'd close a topic without giving people a fair crack of the whip, and I found it irritating to put it mildly (though I don't doubt the integrity of their motives). The moderators on that site would never have allowed an 18 page discussion on the devil with such opposing views. They'd've probably locked after page 2.

Dawn, this is a FUNDAMENTAL Bible teaching. What has happened to you that you say such things should not be discussed? Who would like you not to discuss such a thing if not Satan?
I will remind you they call the mind/flesh of Jesus (which obviously means Jesus), "the" Satan in Matthew 4. Does this not bother you?

That doesn't make sense to me at all.

I was saying that if someone started a thread on Rev TV about the devil, and people posted such contrasting views, the thread would get locked pretty quickly.

Dr Thomas believed "the Satan" in Matt 4 was an angel of light. I don't believe it was the mind of Jesus. I'm with Dr T on that one. Most Christadelphians however believe it was all in His mind - I believe they err on this, but that it's not so vital to affect their salvation.

It is an important subject: why do you think I am trying to get to grips with it and joining in these discussions? I agree with much Christadelphian teaching on the subject - but there are Scriptures which trouble me and Scriptures which I think they brush off.

I've thought about this topic for the last 11 years, and not come to a satisfactory belief which I'm totally happy with. I agree however, that I am trying to reason it out: not always a good thing to do with Scripture - it has to be spiritually discerned.

Your idea of God using a prosecuting angel is interesting and one which I can go along with partly. But I do not believe that Satan is omnipresent. Whic a lot a Christians do; but when you say that to them they say, "Oh no, he's not omnipresent - he uses his angels to do his dirty work." The Bible says that the devil has "angels" (messengers) - do you believe they are prosecuting angels also? What role do they fulfill then? Does God use demons in judgement? If so, why did Jesus go round casting them out?

Edited by dondawn, 27 March 2005 - 12:14 PM.


#18 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 12:26 PM

Dr Thomas believed "the Satan" in Matt 4 was an angel of light. I don't believe it was the mind of Jesus. I'm with Dr T on that one. Most Christadelphians however believe it was all in His mind - I believe they err on this, but that it's not so vital to affect their salvation.

You think it is ok to interpret the mind (thoughts) of Jesus as "THE" Satan with the definite article then do you?

I've thought about this topic for the last 11 years, and not come to a satisfactory belief which I'm totally happy with. I agree however, that I am trying to reason it out: not always a good thing to do with Scripture - it has to be spiritually discerned.

This shows me you are struggling with something you DO NOT WANT to believe. For no other reason could you be "struggling with it for 11 years".
Will you please pray to God about this and ask Him to show you.
Then read my posts again and look up the symbollism in the bible. Its right their infront of you but your not seeing it for some reason?

Your idea of God using a prosecuting angel is interesting and one which I can go along with partly.

Thats your problem. Thats everyones problem with this Bible belief. What they WANT TO BELIEVE gets in the way of what the Bible teaches.

But I do not believe that Satan is omnipresent.

He is not

Whic a lot a Christians do; but when you say that to them they say, "Oh no, he's not omnipresent - he uses his angels to do his dirty work." The Bible says that the devil has "angels" (messengers) - do you believe they are prosecuting angels also?

The devil has angels. The bible plainly says it (and you know what angels are), so why can you not just believe it. What we are dealing with here is simple atheism. Unbelief in what the Bible says. The Bible also says in Rev 18:3 that Babylon is inhabited by "birds" = angels - demons and foul and destable spirits. That is not one that is many.

Which then makes complete sense when we look at gospels and perceive that their were also many their that Jesus cast out...

What role do they fulfill then? Does God use demons in judgement? If so, why did Jesus go round casting them out?

If Satan accusses us before the throne of God, and he is not omnipresent, then he is going to need messengers (his angels) to do it.

Does God use demons in judgement? If so, why did Jesus go round

The Bible is very clear. God has authority over the demons as in Samuel and kings, and as Jesus showed in the gospels.
1. Evil spirits are sent by God in the Old Testament as angels of judgement
2. There were lots in the Lords times to show the glory of God and to prove Jesus was invested with the power of God (as only God can order demons about), as the OT shows. Thus proving to the Jews with discernment He was invested with the power of God as this was the best sign to prove he was.

Edited by Mercia2, 27 March 2005 - 12:44 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#19 Dawn

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 12:43 PM

Dr Thomas believed "the Satan" in Matt 4 was an angel of light. I don't believe it was the mind of Jesus. I'm with Dr T on that one. Most Christadelphians however believe it was all in His mind - I believe they err on this, but that it's not so vital to affect their salvation.

You think it is ok to interpret the mind (thoughts) of Jesus as "THE" Satan with the definite article then do you?


Not really, no. I'm very disappointed Christadlephians interpret the temptations of Christ in this way. But I believe He understands why they do it and will forgive them.

This shows me you are struggling with something you DO NOT WANT to believe. For no other reason could you be "struggling with it for 11 years".


Actually it's the other way round: I DO WANT TO believe the Christadelphian doctrine because I like it. It's comfortable and I don't want to move out of my comfort zone about it. I don't like the idea of a real Satan\devil. But certain Scriptures speak otherwise.

A lot of what you say is beginning to make sense. It's hard to take it in all at once. I can't read some of your long posts because of time restraints, but some points you make tie in with Scripture (unlike the fallen angel theories which I reject).

#20 Mercia2

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 12:50 PM

Actually it's the other way round: I DO WANT TO believe the Christadelphian doctrine because I like it. It's comfortable and I don't want to move out of my comfort zone about it. I don't like the idea of a real Satan\devil. But certain Scriptures speak otherwise.

Thats what I meant.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/




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