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Is the cosmological argument a good one?


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#1 luke

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 05:04 PM

In sum, the cosmological argument is the argument for a First Cause (that something -- taken to be God -- cause the universe to exist). I've spent part of the evening reading and listening to bits and pieces about it, and I was wondering what you all thought. Is it any good?

#2 Fortigurn

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:49 PM

I have been impressed by the Kalam formulation of the cosmological argument.

#3 Mercia2

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 07:41 PM

In sum, the cosmological argument is the argument for a First Cause (that something -- taken to be God

The First Cause which the Cosmological argument is based on leads to an impossible regression of cause and effect. My cosmological argument would be based on cosmological design, philosophy and physics.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#4 jambrez

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 12:15 AM

William lane craig adopts the kalam version, and is in Birmingham soon (october or November) for a debate if you want to hear it stand up to scrutiny first hand...

It’s a reasonable argument.. unless (obliviously) you have a strong presupposition to the contrary- in which case it’s just God of the gaps and an attempt to smuggle in the ontological.
The obvious (opposing) response is- well ‘what’ caused God? which throws the argument in a different direction, and away from its intention. The other potential wriggle room, is that the initial singularity, was outside or before spacetime- and therefore we cant use laws which govern spacetime and apply them to a time when there were no such laws in existence.

Edited by jambrez, 11 September 2011 - 12:18 AM.


#5 Mercia2

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 08:27 AM

William lane craig adopts the kalam version, and is in Birmingham soon (october or November) for a debate if you want to hear it stand up to scrutiny first hand...

It cant be debunked because it refers the nemesis in which it is impossible for science to ever offer anything but a theory, it is the ultimate God of the gaps position, as it is the one gap scientific understanding, even if they push the first cause back one step. But that is something that can be explained (and not refuted) within the opening 10 minutes of any debate, once that fact is established it must be built upon with philosophical/physics which I am sure is the plan?

All of that in turn only sits happily within a framework of understanding that includes non observable Divine inspiration in relation to moral autonomy and free will and the fact God IS confined by natural laws atleast for a time (i.e the same nature within man that we need to eat and procreate, if not controlled also causes wars, violence, pain).
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#6 Mercia2

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 02:16 PM

Sorry I just read that again, very bad grammer.

I meant "that includes non observable Divine intervention in relation to moral autonomy and free will", I said "inspiration" not "intervention".

I intended to say that it cannot be debunked but that forms just a small part of the overall theory, but you know that so I am just stating the obvious.

I just read your post below...

It’s a reasonable argument.. unless (obliviously) you have a strong presupposition to the contrary- in which case it’s just God of the gaps and an attempt to smuggle in the ontological.
The obvious (opposing) response is- well ‘what’ caused God? which throws the argument in a different direction, and away from its intention. The other potential wriggle room, is that the initial singularity, was outside or before spacetime- and therefore we cant use laws which govern spacetime and apply them to a time when there were no such laws in existence.


The problem with the cosmological regression argument is it that while atheists can offer no viable explanation and never will, we are left to ponder what it means to self create, the one problem I do not believe we will ever be able to understand in this life, it is as beyond understanding as before space and time, but the only part that is.

It is God of the gaps theory but as its the nemesis we are talking about it is therefore the one time in which the God of the gaps has to apply, the only time and example I would subscribe to that theory and it is the one gap which science cannot answer (beyond it sounding like theology) and never will be able to answer. Everything after the big bang/start of time and space, I believe, has been intentionally designed to atleast give the possibility that Creation was a random process in which no God is required (it cannot appear any other way - moral autonomy/free will).

Dawkins response to the kalam version, is that science can not explain it right now but will one day, with this response he can avoid the issue and deceive the casual observor as that response seems plausable based on our progression in scientific understanding, but it is not infact plausable at all, Dawkins still cannot get his brain around the fact this would still only be a secondary cause/process. It is only possible to look back as far as time and space began, of course.

A response appealing to a self created God as you know is moving the goal posts and as fascinating as it is, we do not have to have an explanation for this to deal with the above. Personally I cannot see how it is possible to understand the concept of a self creating being in this life? Prophecy does lead us to believe God remains outside space/time which I often think means we need to try and perceive likewise, as hard as that is.

I would like to pop into the back and listen if you do not mind non Christadelphians sitting in? Where and when?

I would also be interested in being put in touch with whoever is funding the very expensive looking advertisements I saw in Coventry City centre promoting Bible classes, to give something back, if anyone knows who is involved in that?

.

Edited by Mercia2, 12 September 2011 - 05:10 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#7 luke

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 02:49 PM

Sorry, can't reply properly at the mo, but about the following:

William lane craig adopts the kalam version, and is in Birmingham soon (october or November) for a debate if you want to hear it stand up to scrutiny first hand...

God willing, we might be going to listen. Quite looking forward to it.

(Mercia, if it's this that you're referring to when you say you'd like to sit at the back and listen, it's not a Christadelphian event: it's part of Dr Craig's UK tour. It's at B'ham uni.)




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